Best of the Week
of May 3, 1998
Here are the most intriguing cross-cultural exchanges either begun or
advanced during the week of May 3, 1998, as selected by Y?
These postings, as well as "Best of the Week" entries from previous
weeks, also can be found in their respective
archives, which we invite you to browse.
There, you will find questions that have received answers, as well as
questions still awaiting responses. We encourage you to answer any
questions relevant to your demographic background, as well as to ask
any provocative question you desire. Answers posted are not
necessarily meant to represent the views of an entire demographic
group, but can provide a window into the insights of an individual
from that group.
First-time users should first make a quick stop at our
guidelines pages for asking and
answering questions.
THE QUESTION:
C3: I have heard single friends
and aquaintances (basically white-collar, middle-class people) say
they would prefer not to date blue-collar, working-class people; that
numerous differences in values and goals are just too difficult to
overcome to try to make such a relationship successful. Moreover, an
invisible boundary line seems to separate union workers from salaried
employees, even if earning similar incomes. How common and valid is
this attitude? I would like to hear from others about their
experiences - good or bad - with dating or maintaining romantic
relationships with people from different socioeconomic
backgrounds.
POSTED MAY 6, 1998
DykeOnByke, engineer <DykeOnByke@aol.com>, Southfield, MI
ANSWER 1:
I was raised in a
white-collar, middle-class family, but despite their expectations and
my own, I was always more attracted to men who worked with their
hands. I am now happily married to a blue-collar man, and we each
value the very different strengths the other brings to our
partnership. My female friends who are married to white-collar men
almost universally envy me: My husband never stays late at the
office; he flawlessly repairs and maintains our house, yard and car;
and most important, he's never too busy or too distracted to spend
time with me. Having tried it both ways, I wouldn't trade him for all
the C.P.A.s in the world.
POSTED MAY 9, 1998
A. Morgan, Houston, TX
FURTHER NOTICE:
The stereotype is that
white-collar workers are greedy and self-serving and that blue-collar
workers are hard workers with no formal education. Neither is true; I
certainly consider going to school for five years as hard work as
some of the things blue-collar workers do.
POSTED MAY 9, 1998
Rob, white <innvertigo@aol.com>, Southfield, MI
To
respond
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THE QUESTION:
R228: As a lifelong Southerner, I
have always had a strong attachment to Confederate symbols such as
the Confederate battle flag, and I have always revered them. However,
after watching the news the other day, I saw a bunch of racists using
those same symbols to provoke black folks. My question is: Do black
folks feel agitation by these symbols? If so, how much? I have always
seen them as part of my region's unique culture and history. I am no
racist, nor do I associate with those who are. I understand some
fools use them, like they use the cross and the U.S. flag, as racist
symbols, but that isn't what it is about to me or anyone I know. I
would appreciate any comments and would like to hear from Northern
black folks and Southern black folks to see if there is a difference
between the two.
POSTED MAY 2, 1998
Wallace, white male <tdbuk@juno.com>, Suwanee, GA
ANSWER 1:
I have no problem with
private people and organizations using the Confederate battle flag or
any other symbols of the Confederate States of America. But I do have
a problem when those symbols are used in whole or in part by
governmental entities. From my reading of history, the Confederate
States of America was founded for the express purpose of protecting
the institution of slavery. Therefore, I believe it inappropriate for
a nation whose government is supposed to be "of the people" to allow
any governmental entities to display these symbols. Referring to the
idea that "all men are created equal," Alexander Stevens, Vice
President of the Confederate States of America, stated, "Our new
government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations
are laid, its cornerstone rests upon, the great truth that the negro
is not equal to the white man; that slavery - subordination to the
superior race - is his natural and normal condition."
POSTED MAY 7, 1998
Jay B., black male, first-generation Yankee <jayboyd@ameritech.net>, Detroit, MI
FURTHER NOTICE:
As a white male and
Southerner, I for many years saw the Confederate battle flag as part
of our heritage. But the more I have studied relationships between
people of different colors and cultures, the less I want to do with a
heritage built on hate or racial superiority. Americans have to
foster dialogues that promote healing. Flying a flag with this
history will not get people talking. We may all come in different
colors, genders, sizes and shapes, but the things we share, our
hopes, dreams, desires and families, make us all human. Don't promote
hate. Live understanding.
POSTED MAY 9, 1998
Mel M., equal opportunity advisor and counselor, <dadymel@aol.com>, Jacksonville, FL
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THE QUESTION:
GE3: Why do most women seem to
prefer older men?
POSTED MARCH 21, 1998
Christopher D., 22 <alphacentuari@mindspring.com>
Arlington, TX
ANSWER 1:
A few reasons come to mind.
Men who are in their thirties and forties are usually more mature
than men in their twenties. They will call a woman when they say they
are going to call (a concept that twenty-somethings have yet to
grasp), and generally treat a woman better. By this point they are
established in a career/job and are not still floating around. Not to
say that money is an important issue, but a steady job is an
attractive quality in a man. And unless these guys are going through
a mid-life crisis, they appear to be a little more forgiving if the
woman's body is less than Baywatch-worthy!
POSTED MARCH 24, 1998
Colleen, 26, Ontario, Canada
FURTHER NOTICE:
Coming from a woman who is 22
and is dating a man who is 36, I think women are attracted to older
men because they are established in their careers, lifestyles, etc.
They know what they want and how to get it. Younger men are too
worried about what kind of beer the local bar is serving. Older men
are more secure in letting a woman be a woman.
POSTED APRIL 30,1998
Stephanie P. <Stephiep@hotmail.com>
Ann Arbor, MI
FURTHER NOTICE 2:
It is not true that all women
prefer older men. I generally dated men (and married a man) older
than me. I was divorced at 37 and found men younger than me quite
attractive. Men in their early 20s often have trouble finding a woman
young enough to appreciate their charm, wisdom and worldliness, yet
old enough to do the same stuff they do. In your mid- to late 20s you
will find your range broadening, I believe.
POSTED MAY 4, 1998
Pam S. <palema@downcity.net>, Willimantic, CT
FURTHER NOTICE 3:
I am currently with a man
five years my senior and I can honestly say I would have trouble
being with anybody younger. Sometimes I have difficulty with him
being as young as he is. My mother has repeatedly told me I should
date somebody closer to my age or younger. I find older men extremely
attractive and more confident in themselves as well as their
partners. They also have their experiences in life to pull from while
conversing or debating, and I'm sure I'm not the only female who
enjoys a good verbal sparring. Also, an older man who will stand by
you while you find the niche meant for you and who helps you expand
yourself is always nice.
POSTED MAY 7, 1998
Diana M., 23 <Ktastrophe@aol.com>, Charlotte, N.C.
To
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THE QUESTION:
R237: It seems to me that black
males generally have better physiques than white males. Is this true,
and if so, why?
POSTED MAY 3, 1998
R.M., white female, Jacksonville, FL
ANSWER 1:
I don't know if you are
referring to the general population or to sports figures. Many of the
black and white males I know have terrible physiques. I don't think
one group has a better physique than any other group. If you are
finding that black males are in better shape, you need to broaden
your sample of men. As a long time gym member in three different
states, I have found that the black male members are in worse shape
than the white male members.
POSTED MAY 4, 1998
Jas, black male <themoas@aol.com>, Pensacola, FL
FURTHER NOTICE:
I would tend to disagree with
Jas' post. As someone who has worked out in many different gyms over
the past 20 years, I have found that the percentage of black men with
great bodies is far greater than that of white men. But this type of
personal opinion is not really useful. I believe the questioner was
inquiring whether blacks had an advantage over white men when it
comes to getting in shape. One must be careful to avoid broad
generalizations and stereotyping in this area, but it is known that
the races differ in their muscle/fat ratio, with races from tropical
climates having lower body fat than those from colder climes, who
evolved with higher body fat for protection. What this means is that
a greater percentage of black men would be able to add lean muscle
mass without adding fat than is true for white men. This is most
clearly evident in bodybuilding competitions. While white men and
black men place equally in contests in which bodybuilders use
steroids, in contests where drug-testing is firmly enforced, blacks
far outplace whites. While one might say that this results from
social and cultural realities (who dedicates themselves to the gym
and who doesn't), the fact that this discrepancy is not seen in
contests that allow steroids indicates white men need
growth-enhancing drugs more often than do black men in order to
compete.
POSTED MAY 6, 1998
Mark M. white <marknyc@hotmail.com>, New York, NY
FURTHER NOTICE 2:
I think it is important to
take into account the degree to which public perception has been
shaped in the last 25 years. Since the early 1970s, one of African
Americans' first significant post-civil rights successes has been the
integration of American professional sports. Some sports now have a
50 percent or higher percentage of black athletes. This is a powerful
media image, and one that can create in the mind of the public a
perception that African Americans in general exhibit the qualities
that are most seen in the sports/media. I would say that African
Americans are no healthier relative to other cultural groups, only
that their public image is currently dominated by an image of the
black athelete.
POSTED MAY 6, 1998
Michael <msmacharg@aol.com>, Washington, DC
FURTHER NOTICE 3:
I guess I'm not really asking
about black males who work out in gyms or who are sports stars. I'm
talking about the general population of black males and white males
that I see in everyday life. In that situation, I tend to see many
more black males with good physiques than white males. So it's not an
observation I'm deriving from the media (I don't watch TV) or from a
small sampling, but from what I'm seeing around me day to day.
POSTED MAY 6, 1998
R.M., white female, Jacksonville, FL
FURTHER NOTICE 4:
To Mark: You made some good
points, as each race has had to adapt to the local environment in
which they lived. However, even though genetics can give you the
potential, hard work and dedication are still the only way to
succeed. For the average black male, genetics don't seem to be
helping at all when it comes to trying to "get lean." I wasn't
talking about "bodybuilders" as you noted, just the ordinary guy
coming from work who hits the gym for a quick workout. I tend to
agree with Michael that the media has given a perception that blacks
have better physiques than the general population (it's hard not to
see this in magazines or newspapers). Although R.M. states it's what
she is seeing around her, I would like her to give specific examples.
I could make the opposite case in my town, where I find more white
men working without shirts on (taking advantage of the warm sun) than
black men, and the white men have good physiques. I would have to
look just a little bit harder, and I probably would find just as many
blacks with good physiques.
POSTED MAY 7, 1998
Jas, black <themoas@aol.com>, Pensacola, FL
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THE QUESTION:
R229: Why do Asians who know
English insist on speaking their native tongue when talking to one
another?
POSTED MAY 2, 1998
Kevin, Dearborn, MI
ANSWER 1:
I've read two other similar
question about this (R176 and R169), but I hope it's OK to add some
more explanation. First, and most of all, I have to emphasize that
speaking in one's native tongue/language is much easier, more
convenient and practical. Most of us learn English (and other foreign
languages) to be able to communicate with people from other
countries, but we certainly have no intention to use it as our daily
language. No matter how well you master a foreign language, you'll
always find it easier (and more comfortable) to communicate and
exchange ideas using your native language. So if I'm speaking to
someone with the same native language, why should we speak in English
? We'll have to do a "double-thinking" (translate my ideas into
English, then translate what my partner said in English), and in the
process, it's very possible one of us will misunderstand what the
other said. Not to mention that each language has words and terms
that don't have the exact translation in English, making it even more
difficult and impractical for me to make myself understandable to my
partner. As for manners, I think it should be enough if we have
excused ourselves. By the way, I know many people from
English-speaking countries (United States, Australia, etc.), who work
as ex-pats here. These people can speak my language very well (some
are even married to natives who often don't speak English), yet when
dealing with me, they insist on speaking English once they find out I
speak English. Why ? Because it's easier for them.
POSTED MAY 4, 1998
Chi Yu, 26, female, Indonesia
FURTHER NOTICE:
If you're referring to Asians
who are newcomers to the United States, my experience is that it's a
matter of comfort zones. They communicate with each other better in
their own language and cannot talk about more complex issues in
English. If you're talking about Asian-Americans, however (those
Asians born or raised mostly in the United States), the reasons can
vary from 1) wanting to become fluent in a language that they lost,
2) a feeling of solidarity or 3) just plain wanting to keep their
original heritage alive. I'll put it this way: Haven't you ever gone
to an Irish festival, or Oktoberfest? Some otherwise American whites
may want to speak in German or practice some ancient Gaelic, simply
for celebration's sake. Many whites I know take French, German and
Italian in high school and love to speak it among themselves. No
complaints there.
POSTED MAY 4, 1998
David L., 25, Asian-American, Chicago, IL
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respond
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THE QUESTION:
SO24: Why do some gay men feel they have to sound
gay?
POSTED APRIL 18, 1998
Derek Y., Duluth, MN
ANSWER 1:
I think the answer lies in
the question, "Why do some straight men feel they have
to sound macho?" Sometimes, whether it is a gay or straight man, the
reason is simply that he is advertising for a mate (or at least a
sexual encounter). Other times, it may be that he wants to fit in
with the others in the crowd. Or it may be that he is distinguishing
himself from all the others (a need to be different). There are other
times when the person simply has no control over how he sounds,
whether that is a result of genetics, development or societal
conditioning. I am a gay male, and among my gay male friends, I find
examples of just about every reason noted above. I can also say this
is true of my many straight male friends as well. You might also take
into consideration that only in relatively recent times have gay men
been allowed to be "out" to such an extent in public and truly be
themselves rather than what the straight world demanded they be.
POSTED MAY 3, 1998
Dennis P., 48, gay <buckets@flash.net>, Tucson, AZ
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respond
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THE QUESTION:
GE23: Why is it that every
time you have a sincere interest in a woman, you have to be a jerk to
get her attention? If you are a nice guy, you end up getting taken
advantage of, but if you are a miserable freak, they seem to call you
every day until your phone falls apart. Should guys just act like
morons to get women?
POSTED MAY 2, 1998
Adam, Brighton, MI
ANSWER 1:
Perhaps the more relevant
question should be why are you attracted to women who are only
attracted to men who treat them poorly. This is not meant as a
criticism, but observation. Plenty of women want to date a nice man
who is not always in a crisis. However, there are many women who
thrive in crisis situations and want to "fix" or nurture the bad
boys. This is not innate in every woman, but it seems to be so in
your experience. Another thing to consider it the fact that you are
pursuing women who do not want a stable relationship, so you would be
better off to steer clear.
POSTED MAY 4, 1998
Sheila, 30, St. Louis, MO
FURTHER NOTICE:
Many women (and some men as
well) like the challenge of trying to attract someone who is
basically indifferent to them. That's why being too eager to please
is often a tactical error. You don't have to actually be indifferent
or unkind to get a woman's attention, but do be true to yourself.
Have a life, do interesting things on your own. Don't drop everything
to accept a last-minute invitation. Don't even agree that "Titanic"
is the best movie ever if you were cheering for the iceberg. If
you're not willing to brave her displeasure, you won't earn her
respect.
POSTED MAY 4, 1998
A. Morgan, 33, Houston, TX
FURTHER NOTICE 2:
Adam, if you act like a moron
to impress a woman, the woman you impress will, invariably, be a
moron also. If you express a
sincere interest in a woman,
chances are she will respond in kind. I have never been attracted to
a man who has acted like a jerk just to get my attention. You may
need to start hanging out in places where you can be yourself with a
woman, instead of where you feel you have to beat out the other guy
who is making a fool of himself.
POSTED MAY 6, 1998
Kristen, 25, female <kristenv25@juno.com>, Ypsilanti, MI
FURTHER NOTICE 3:
There were times I had low
self-esteem and thought I couldn't deserve a nice guy. I was treated
badly by guys and didn't think I could do any better. Then I grew up.
Nice guys can get noticed, and once I realized I didn't deserve to be
treated badly, I wouldn't settle for anything less than a nice guy.
It just takes some time. I had to get used to the idea that a man
could truly want to make me happy. It was a lot different than my
efforts to make a jerk happy. And you know what, a man wanting to
make me happy made me happy. Hang in there. I think women want to be
treated with love and respect even if they don't choose a loving and
respectful man. There are other valid points, but I believe it is
often an esteem issue.
POSTED MAY 7, 1998
M.Bower, 24, Macomb, MI
FURTHER NOTICE 4:
I think it's deeper than just
whether women want a "nice guy" or a "bad boy." That's just the
surface level. Both men and women look for those people to whom they
are attracted. A "bad boy" might have a rebellious or obnoxious
attitude, but nevertheless, I've never seen one treat a lady badly
and still be with her permanently. It's the image that attracts.
Basically, whether you're a nice guy or a bad dude, just concentrate
on being attractive and know respect. Even a "nice guy" can be more
romantic and confident - and tell dirty jokes once in a while. Being
nice does not mean being plain and boring. On the other hand, being a
"bad boy" doesn't mean being abusive - he can still buy her flowers
and read her poetry. It's just image, nothing more.
POSTED MAY 9, 1998
David L., 25, Chicago, IL
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respond
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THE QUESTION:
R43: Why do blacks have larger
than average lips?
POSTED MARCH 19, 1998
John B., Warren , MI
ANSWER 1:
Average compared to what?
Turn the question around: Why do some whites have smaller than
average lips? It's all a matter of how you define what "average" is -
and in this country "average" means "white." This means that anything
that isn't white is therefore different or non-average.
See how strange that is?
POSTED MARCH 24, 1998
Alex, 39 <aleavens@mindspring.com>
Lawrenceville, GA
FURTHER NOTICE:
I think the original question
was not meant to imply that any "non-white" lips are not average. I
think it was an innocent question that deserved an answer. This is a
good example of why white America will never understand other races.
If we ask, we are perceived as racist.
POSTED MARCH 31, 1998
D.L., white, Redford, MI
FURTHER NOTICE 2:
To D.L.: White America can
understand other races and cultures better if we take the time to try
to understand other perspectives than our own and not be so defensive
when others point out when we do ask questions that display ignorance
or white bias. I see no indication of Alex's race nor any accusations
of racism. His (her?) response is pretty straightforward. Even as a
white woman, my initial reaction to this question was pretty much the
same as Alex's reaction, but thought it more appropriate to let a
black person point out the obvious. One purpose of this forum is to
help break down barriers and educate each other.
POSTED APRIL 28, 1998
DykeOnByke, white lesbian and corporate diversity council member
<DykeOnByke@aol.com>, Southfield, MI
FURTHER NOTICE 3:
How about "average" as
compared to every other race? i.e. brown people, pink people, yellow
people and red people. While I agree that "average" may be perceived
to mean white, that is not the root of the question. I don't think
that the original question had racial implications. Which brings us
back to: Blacks tend to have larger lips than the other four colors
of people. Why does this tend to be the case?
POSTED APRIL 29, 1998
Linda (one of the other four colors) <linda1701e@voyager.net>
Bloomfield area, MI
FURTHER NOTICE 4:
This is a stereotype. I am a
white woman and have larger-than-average lips. It is not a race
thing.
POSTED MAY 3, 1998
Mick, 27, white, Birmingham, AL
FURTHER NOTICE 5:
I have read that straight,
overhanging noses evolved as an adaptation to cold climates, but I
can't remember anything about lips. I think there is a general trend
for some races to have smaller or larger lips than others, but
obviously, as with most genetic traits, there is a large range of
types in each population and race. I believe that the "Out of Africa"
theory of human evolution is the most likely. Therefore, it is likely
that fuller lips are the original human state. Large lips may have
arisen by natural or sexual selection. Lips are a very sensuous part
of the body and look attractive. They may also be useful in practical
ways - other primates use lips for many different functions, though
other primates don't have the thin-skinned, blood-filled part to
their lips that most humans have. As people began to move out of
Africa into colder climates, larger lips may have posed some
disadvantage as did darker skin (not enough vitamin D/E?) and flatter
noses (something to do with condensation of water in the air). Lips
have less skin coverage than other areas on our face and are
susceptible to the extreme elements - chapped lips are common when
exposed to the cold and blistered lips when exposed to the sun (if
pale skinned). The disadvantage wouldn't necessarily have to be large
to change the genetic makeup of a population over many, many years.
Alternatively, there may just have been a particular trend in lip
shape in those who migrated out of Africa (look up bottle-necks in
genetics books). I think this is less likely.
POSTED MAY 6, 1998
Beth, thin-lipped, Edinburgh, UK
FURTHER NOTICE 6:
Genetically, African
Americans (politically correct but not geographically) have fuller
lips, Native Americans are known for straight, full, black hair,
Swedes for blonde hair, Irish for green eyes, Jews for prominent
noses, and the list goes on. As a multiculture offspring, I pass for
"white" most of the time, but I am attracted to African Americans, so
that I do not see "larger-than-average lips," I see beautiful, full
and sensuous lips. As an artist, though, I am able to see and
appreciate the differences and beauty in everyone I run across.
POSTED MAY 6, 1998
Steve N., 40, mixed <blaster7@hotmail.com>
Dallas, TX
FURTHER NOTICE 7:
I'm a black male and do not
interpret the question as racist. It's a good question. Blacks come
from a hot climate. There are biological and environmental reasons
our nostrils are larger: To cool the air we breathe. Our behinds are
larger to store fat in a place where we can stay cool rather than on
legs or arms. We tend to be taller because taller, lean bodies
dissipate heat better. Straight hair warms the head and neck. How
many times have you seen straight-haired people pull their hair away
from their necks to cool themselves? There is a biological reason why
our lips are larger. I'd love to know the answer.
POSTED MAY 6, 1998
Ron B., Mission Viejo, CA
FURTHER NOTICE 8:
Black people seem to have the
largest features of all the races because of adaptation. If you are
willing to know the true answer, you must study. Black people tend to
have the larger features because when we were in Africa, we had to
adapt to the hot climates. That's why our skin is deep in melanin -
to protect us against the sun's rays. Melanin is the dark pigment
that gives us our color. We have larger noses to be able to breathe
in the humid air of Africa. We have larger lips for the same reason.
We tend to have "kinky" hair because of the humidity and hot
temperatures of Africa. I hope this was helpful to you.
POSTED MAY 6, 1998
Rabiah S. <littlemama1220@hotmail.com>, Atlanta, GA
FURTHER NOTICE 9:
To quote the guidelines
posted on this website for answering a question: "If someone else has
shown the courage to acknowledge to themselves and others that they
don't know something, they may well be on the path to knowing. In
that spirit, try not to penalize them by deriding them or being
condescending with your responses." The question was an honest
attempt to inquire about a biologic difference, which most likely has
a scientific explanation (of which I am unaware). The point is that
this site was designed so that people could ask precisely this kind
of question.
POSTED MAY 6, 1998
Mark M., white <marknyc@hotmail.com>, New York, NY
FURTHER NOTICE 10:
I agree with the first
response: The question seems a bit narrow, but the person is trying
to learn (I forgive you for not knowing). But take a moment to think
about how that sounds. It is a generalization, based on non-factual
perceptions, which can easily be seen as an insult. I dated a guy of
Polish descent for a long time and his lips were very full and, well,
sexy, but he was white. I never thought "Do all Polish people have
full lips?" I really think that the lip thing is individual, as are
most things about people. There are some traits that most of a
certain group may have, but those things are just features.
POSTED MAY 6, 1998
Carmela, 29, black <pecola@hotmail.com>, Atlanta, Ga
FURTHER NOTICE 11:
Consider another species: The
dog. Dogs have more than 250 known "breeds" and many more mixes. Some
dogs have long ears to help stir smells up from the ground to better
smell. Others have broader frames to better pull sleds. Their
anatomical differences have a purpose. As for the human species, I
was once told that the definition of a race is determined by the size
of the skull, the girth of the hips and the length of the thigh bone.
If we are wondering about dimensions of a particular race's anatomy,
in this case lips, I'd say anthropology verifies there are anatomical
differences helping to define races. Ignoring the word "average," if
we ask the question about lips in terms of a race's development
through evolution, do we know if there is a specific reason some
races tend to have larger lips than other races (or for that matter
straight hair, eyes with little or no lids, or a lot of body hair)?
Is there a physical advantage to or need for any race's differences
based on what we know from anthropology? It's a good question when we
look at it scientifically and do not single out one race or another
as average.
POSTED MAY 7, 1998
Laura K., <pelagic2@bellsouth.net>, Miami, FL
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